Hi there,

I am a composer and although I have read many sources on the horn, I can't get a clear explanation of how to produce particular notes, just a vague mix of valve changes and embouchure.

Let's say you want to play a two octave C Major scale on a normal F horn (double horn) - Is the sound produced with the mouth first and then altered by valves? I find it confusing.

The other thing please. Is there somewhere that clearly states like a glossary thing, what each effect on the horn does. For example - Stopping as opposed to Muting (I get mixed up cos both can be done by hand??)

Thanks so much horn people!

Jai

hey

basically they key to playing the horn well is coordination in which you have to get your embouchure to change at exactly the same tim as you press the valves.

some intervals require no valve changes like octave leaps on a C in which case your embouchure has to be very precise and accurate in pitching to move swiftly from one note to the other. It is easier when you have the valves to guide you. I guess you press the valves a fraction of a second before you change your embouchure but i have never really thought about it, it kinda comes naturally. If you are tonging then you can change valves before blowing but slurring you have to get them both precisely together thus making it harder. Hope it makes sense :S

now the use of the hand. you normally just have your hand in a little way to alter the sound alittle to make it more warm and you can alter the shape and distance it is in the bell for tuning purposes. If you put a mute in the horn the pitch or tuning is NOT affected yet the sound coming out is muffled and well...muted?! If you hand stop which is basically stopping the air coming out of the bell it makes a more exaggerated mute but also affects the tuning making it flat. This means when hand stopping you have to transpose up a 2nd i.e. if you were meant to play an F, you play a G and it sounds the same pitch-wise. Its hard to explain the differences in sound but hand stopping creates a bigger mute i guess...

hope this helps and you understand :D

OK cool thank you - it's become clearer. From my point of view I don't need to know what valve you press and what embouchure you use to get a certain pitch unless I was going to learn horn. It seems like a difficult instrument to master. When I see horn players in the orchestra on TV the valve changes look so random. you are saying that sometimes vales are pressed, sometimes they are not and the coordination of valve and embouchure is the point. So there must be some kind of horn chart? where a chromatic scale explains what valve and what embouchure for each note?

Just an aside, the thumb valve is optional, the one that changes between the lower and upper horn sound? Would you use that much?

About the mutes, do you reckon you would write in the score whether to use hand or mute. Also is there a difference with a 'stop mute' - that changes the pitch unlike a normal mute yeah?

It's interesting stuff... I am having a Horn weekend Thanks for baring my litany of questions!

Jai

Change valves/Mutes/Charts

As a composer you should probably not think too much about the lips and fingerings and you should probably not think too much about when to and when not to use the "lever that changes between high and low horn". Brass instruments are not like woodwind instruments. The brass instruments are a tube and the notes able to be produced on that tube are based on a common basic series of harmonics. Engaging any one of the levers change the length of the tube and then your lips and speed of air is what decides which pitch you get. There are two references I can send you to to know more about all the techniques a Horn player can do. One is EXTENDED TECHNIQUES FOR THE HORN by Douglas Hill. The 2nd you will have to wait for as I don't remember but I will get the title from my freind and post it then. That other book is the greatest book for any composer to have and it is really really good for giving you everything you need to know as a composer.

Using valves: The composer should not worry about the valves too much. You mention a change valve from low to high notes; this is not the way that valve should be thought of. The valve you are refering to is called a "change valve". It is not like an octave key or register key on a clarinet or saxophone. It is in fact a change valve for changing between different sides of the Horn. A common "double horn" often has two sets of valve slides and the change valve switches the air going through the horn from the top set of slides to the bottom set of slides. Yes, one set is shorter than the other - but does not necessarily result in higher pitches; it merely gives you a different set of tube harmonics to work with. Different horn players will use different fingerings for the same note. Sometimes it is personal preference, sometimes it is what has been beat into their heads, sometimes one valve combination sounds better on one horn make better than a different make. And two horn players playing on different make horns may use different fingerings. Also different horns are in different keys (see more under double horn?). Different harmonics have different traits and tone colors also.

Double Horn?
Although double horn is considered the most common horn today it is not always the horn that is used. Many people use "triple horns" and more and more orchestras are having their 1st and 3rd players use "descant horns". Also, some horns use the common 'descending' system and some use what are known as 'ascending' valves. Then other horn players use differnet "single horns". It is best to let the performer decide which instrument they are going to use. Example: the most common double horn is in the key of F and Bb (although as a composer you just write for us as though the instrument is in the key of F), other horns maybe in different keys. Example - Cinncinati Orchestra the 2nd and 4th horn use horns in the keys of F and Bb, the 3rd horn uses a horn in Bb and high F, the 1st horn uses a horn in the key of Bb and high Eb. I have horns in differnet keys. I have a double horn in F and Bb, a double horn in Bb and high F, a single horn in Bb, C, and B-natural. My freind David has a double horn in Bb, C, and high Eb.

A good analogy would be building a house. an Architect makes a blue print (composer makes a score)and the house builders use what tools they want to use. Yes, they might need a back hoe, but they choose which brand and model backhoe to use. The framer uses a hammer, but he decides which hammer he wants to use. So the composer writes the Horn part and we will decide which horn model to use.

MUTING:::::::::
The most common mute technique is a 'straight mute'. A good straight mute will not give a muffled sound but a clean nasal buzz type sound.

The second most common mute technique is "stopped Horn". This technique requires the hand closing off the bell (not being shoved into it). The result is a very nasal brassy sound. As you close the bell off the pitch slowly lowers almost a 1/2 step (on the F horn only) and then suddenly jumps up a 1/2 step. This is the stopped horn and the horn player will do the proper transposition don't you do it as a composer. The reason is you don't know what equipment will be used. There are stopped mutes made that the player can use instead of his or her hand and some of them transpose the pitch and some of them don't. Also if the player is using a Bb horn the transposition is no longer a half-step, it is almost 3/4 step. An Eb or C horn will have a different pitch change.

A third mute technique which is seldom used and often interpreted incorrectly (and difficult to do) is "echo horn". This is when the player closes of the bell almost all the way and results in the oppsite transposition, the effect when doen well is the sound of a horn echoing from faw away.

I have seen and they do make a 'cup mute' for the horn. But please don't write for it. If you do 99% of the time the player is going to use a straight mute. I will. I'm not going to spend that kind of money on a mute I will use rarely and quite honestly the sound isn't that much different from a straight mute.

I hope this helps you, perhaps it raises more questions; if so please ask more.

Thank you so much John, this clears up a lot. I agree that as a composer I don't need to know 'how' you produce a particular note, I have however become very interested in it. I play flute and it is obviously a very different technique to wind as you said. I also misused a word there, I said 'valves' when I meant 'keys'! When I mention chart I meant that embouchure is created (you must know the note you want to play and adjust your mouth appropriately and then press a particular key. I figure the order of coordination of keys and embouchure is a complex one. Maybe a little like the trumpet too?

One more thing to ask is this, cuivre, I wonder if you know any classical examples of that sound? I wonder what it sounds like.
I know that 'bells in the air' was used by Mahler. That can be very dramatic.

J

cuivre is interpretted as 'stopped horn' and should be very brassy sounding.

Just wondering, if this simple thing will help you to get a better understanding of the horns only mild need for valves and how they work -

Middle C - open
(going up) D - 1
E - open
F - 1
G - open
A - 1 & 2
B - 1
C - open

If you have a single (or double) horn the fingerings remain the same, although there can be alterations to make it easier for different players. However, if you have a double horn with four valves, the next octave up can be played easier if you do

High C - open or 4
D - 1, 2 & 4
E - 4 & 2
F - 4 & 1

etc. I hope this helps you figure it out a bit. Horn players don't rely on valves as much as you might think because so much can be achieved with embouchre and breath, and so many of the notes have the same valves.

Hope this helps