Hello again everybody!

To present my problem: I have been increasingly using 'high' notes, (for me meaning from high D to A)and I feel that I am using my lip muscles too much. Having said that I employ breath pressure to change notes constantly, and yet I still feel that I am using my lips too much.

When I try to use my breath more, I just end up overblowing and sounding awful, and I don't think this is the problem. Is there another way to fix it/another cause of the problem, or will it just change in time?

Thanks everyone!

You need to aquire the high notes in a simple and slow method just like your first notes when you first began playing. From your description it seems like you are on the correct path. When you play higher notes, your lips should not get all that much tighter, nor should there be that much more pressure (although there is a little of each). AND as you already noticed you use less air to play higher notes; faster air, yes, but less. Remember to relax - don't get tight (same thing when playing louder - relax to play louder).

Here is my wonderous "Increase your range" exercise:
1- start off playing long tones on very low notes. Start on F 4th line bass clef. Play F for as long as you can in one breath. Do this twice. Pay attention to how your lips feel and what sound you are getting. Then move down a 1/2 step and repeat that note twice. Continue until you can't play any lower.
2- Rest for 1 to 2 minutes.
3- Chromatic scales. Start on middle C (1 ledger line below the treble clef). Play a chromatic scale up and then back down. Don't do this too fast. Do it so that each note has a good, intentional, decisive attack and good tone (perhaps 72 bpm). Next start on C#; go up and back down. Continue the chromatic scales moving up in 1/2 step increments. When you get to a scale where you can't play the highest note - - - -stop. Stop, your done for this session.
4- If you can do this once in the early part of the day and once in the latter part of the day it would be best. And don't do a cool down exercise after your end of day session.

5- another thing you should add to your regular routine is the Walter Moeck Warm-UPs for french horn. This simple exercise costs like $2.50. You might be able to get it from your local music store, if not there are lots of places on-line (but then you spend more on shipping than the piece). Perhaps you can buy some other stuff (Pottag etudes, Rubank, Fussel, Maxime-Alhponse)if you have to go online. When you get your range you need stop the "range extension exercise" and go back to doing a normal routine (which will include the Moeck exercises). The moeck exercises help center your embouchre and increase your flexibility (which will help keep and extend your range even further).

Thanks alot John. I'm gonna go try it now

Thanks again

In response, I'm going to quote a horn player who recently posted this on the Yahoo Groups horn list. MA says it so much better than I can.:

<<Re: How to increase the reliability and sound of my high range

A plethora of good teachers did not help my high range, because they never were able to tell me what I was doing wrong (and a couple of them are *famous.*) I heard all the usual stuff...relax, use more air, use less pressure.

But if you are trying to play high on a low range lip setting, none of the above are going to get you much of anywhere. You need to find a source that will tell you how the lip position changes when you play high. That is why there are so many amateur players (and more than a few pros) who play very well in one range of the horn and not so well at the other end of the range. Their "natural" embouchure is a lip setting that prevents them from playing outside of the range the lip setting works for.

If your lip setting is correct for the high range (somewhat rolled in) then you will have almost zero pressure going on. Literally the only pressure you need is to seal with the mouthpiece. If you find yourself needing more pressure than a
bare minimum, lessening the pressure won't do you any good because it's the symptom, not the cause. Learning the rolled-in lip setting will make the pressure go away on its own.

For all I know, the original poster is using a correct lip setting and just needs more practice to learn to focus the aperture better. But the usual advice of "relax and use more air and less pressure" just won't work if the lip setting
is incorrect.

To get an idea of lip settings: take a credit card and place it lightly between your lips. Support it with your hand so you don't need to use lip tension to hold it up. Relax your lips and corners! (really....don't "form an embouchure."
You're trying to do something new, not the same old thing but with a credit card.) Now use your lips to draw it into your mouth a little bit; you have just rolled in your lips. Now use your lips to push it out of your mouth a little bit. You have now rolled out your lips. Rolled in is high range; rolled out is low range. Anyone can have a killer range once they know how to do this and have the proper set of exercises.

In the rolled in position, remove the credit card, leave your lips as they were, and blow. You should get the sound of a slight air hiss, or even a squeak. With this hiss going, gently touch the mouthpiece to your lips. As you move the
mouthpiece towards you, slowly, at some point you will get a very high note out. This is the beginning of an easy high range.

I got these concepts out of "The Balanced Embouchure" book.

MA>>

Thanks alot Val. That makes sense

Oh we have a disagreement - two different schools of thought.There is no reason you can't get a good tone in the high range with the same, or similar 'setting' as lower notes. I find the 'rolled' embouchre does help to get the notes, but the tone quality of the note becomes thinner. Many teachers and palyers find this thinner sound acceptable and believe it is normal. I see no reason why you shouldn't have a gorgeous voluptuous tone in all registers. The high notes should be as full and sonorous as the low notes.

I use more lip in the mouthpiece as I go higher.

I will try both ways and compare them, and see which one works best for me. No doubt it is different for every individual.
Thanks

Rumble, the problem with trying both methods is that you will not have any consistency. It really is not wise to go between the two. Some people can but you really need to know the theory behind both methods and have hours of playing everyday in order to not hurt what you do have.

My suggestion is to see which one you resemble most closely now. Also, if you have a rpivate instructor see what he or she likes. And also listen to recordings. Get some recent CD's of Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and see what you think of the horn playing there compare some other recordings. Then decide which palying you like best. Contact me after you have this and I will tell you which method they are using.

<Added>

I am not sure your school teacher will know the difference or care about the difference. Both are acceptable and both work. Honestly, I believe the embouchre Valerie is talking about is easier/quicker to learn and get good at. The method I am refering too takes more time, but obviously I think has a better pay off.

But perhaps your school instructor will know. It doesn't hurt to ask and who knows maybe you both will benefit from it and both become better, more knowlegdable musicians.

John,
It is school holidays at the moment, but as soon as we get back (2 weeks) I will ask my instructor and see what he thinks.
Thanks both of you for the advice!

It's me, Val, AKA granny! I've started a new account because the original email address I signed up with a couple years ago is now inactive. Anyway, I have a couple comments about John's excellent comment:

<Oh we have a disagreement - two different schools of thought. There is no reason you can't get a good tone in the high range with the same, or similar 'setting' as lower notes.>

We're really not in disagreement here, John. I believe you've formed a common misconception of what The Balanced Embouchure(BE)actually is. Contrary to what most people believe, BE does not mean to roll in for high notes and to roll out for low notes. Part of (BE)development system is to learn to play as high as one can with the low lip setting and as low as one can with the high lip setting thus allowing the players lips to find their most ideal setting to play withh a full lovely tone in all registers. This is accomplished through specific, systematic and daily challenges to the chops to play every possible lip configuration possible. You'd have to experience the program to fully understand it. It's an amazing efficient set of little exercises. (For example: in one exercises I play double pedal C with a rolled out embouchure and use that same setting to play an arpeggio all the way up to high C. In another exercise, I start a high C with a rolled in setting then play down an arpeggio as far as I can go. It's a good challenge for giving my lips an opportunity to develop a wide range of skills, range of motion, etc.)

However, I can easily see why you formed that misconception. That's what I originally thought BE was. I didn't really "get it" until I had worked with it for a few months. MA's quotation above, simply introduces the reader to one of the universal principles that BE is based upon. People often take those ideas and jump to the conclusion that rolling in and out is the whole BE ball of wax. I assure you, it's way more comprehensive and flexible than that.

<I find the 'rolled' embouchre does help to get the notes, but the tone quality of the note becomes thinner.>>

Of course it does, especially if you only try it once or twice. As a BE student works with the Roll-In exercises, their lips learn to focus very efficiently and develop a beautiful tone with a rolled in embouchure as well as with a rolled out embouchure. Then the student is self guided by his ear & muscle intelligence to the embouchure that will provide him with good tone and ease in all registers.

<Many teachers and palyers find this thinner sound acceptable and believe it is normal.>

I don't know any.

<I see no reason why you shouldn't have a gorgeous voluptuous tone in all registers. The high notes should be as full and sonorous as the low notes.>

Absolutely.

<I use more lip in the mouthpiece as I go higher.>

That's exactly what rolling it is, more lip in the mouthpiece! So you DO roll in as you ascend, you just call it something else! ha ha! BE teaches the student exactly HOW to incorporate "more lip in the mouthpiece" as they play higher. It's is a skill that can be learned.

One of my BE comrades, a professional chamber music performer, studied with the late great John Barrows. When my friend started studying BE, he said he finaly knew how John Barrows did it. He said as John Barrows ascended into the upper register, his lower lip totally disappeared into the mouthpiece. My friend, even though he performed professionally as an principal for many years, said never really understood how Barrows did it. When he started BE, he said he finally knew the secret!

Whether you call it "more lip in the mouthpiece" or "rolling in" it's based upon the same phenomenon. BE gives simple exercises that even kids can do that teach the lips HOW to do this! The principles BE is based upon work for horn, low brass as well as trumpet. I have a list of over 70 horn players who are using BE. About 20% are professional performers.

Valerie

Valerie,

Thank you for the segmentation and expanations. I'm still missing a little of exactly what is going on with the "ROLLED IN" term. I may know someone around here who may have the book. I will make it a point to have a look at it - who knows, maybe I'll end up purchasing the adpated method from you.

**having nothing to do with our topic **
John Barrows grew up not to far from my mother. And recently my wife andI were looking at house just a door or two down from where John lived. A wonderful Horn player.

I'm so glad you're open to these ideas. Thanks so much for listening and keeping an open mind. BE is the most misunderstood embouchure development system in the universe. People often think it means playing with a rolled in embouchure. It doesn't. It's not a prescribed embouchure or playing method at all. It's a set of exercises each using an exaggerated embouchure set up that is designed to teach coordination, flexibility and range of motion to the chops. It's so hard to explain; it's something that must be experienced to fully understand.

I don't sell the adapted version for horn. I GIVE it away! I sell the regular BE book from trumpet and provide the my adapted horn exercises to ANYONE who is working out of the BE book. If your friend shares his copy of the book with you, I will be happy to email you my adapted exercises. BE isn't a business for me, it's a movement. I'm not into it for the money. I'm into it becuase I get a big kick out of helping brass players overcome the obstacles of limited range & endurance.

One of the first horn players to try BE after I introduced it to the horn world is in his 60s. He was so thrilled that for the first time in his life he played a high C, he recorded it & emailed it to me! There's just nothing like that feeling.

Val

John, here's an example of a professional horn player who has written publically about her experiences with The Balanced Enbouchure. Sandra is the principal of the Toledo orchestra, and as you will read below, her embouchure issues weren't dealing with range, but rather frustration with the conflicts between the various "schools of thought" in brass pedagogy. This was posted Tue Apr 21, 2009 on the Yahoo Horn list:

<Even working as a horn player, I struggled with subtle aspects of my embouchure work. I went through a period where my ability to play was severely compromised. I could say I simply was not practicing enough - but the truth is more that my mind was so clogged with conflicting 'should nots' (you should not roll your lips.you should not move your tongue.you should yadda yadda yadda.) that I tied myself into knots. I worked my way out over time - but still felt that I was missing a piece - the very piece you so well describe [referring to rolling in and out]. It was this list and Valerie's - and finally Wendell Rider's - open minded discussion of this supposedly forbidden technique that finally convinced me to buy Jeff's book and see for myself.>

<I work on his concepts every day. I don't have higher range (I had - and still have - what I need for my work) - but it sounds better, I'm more consistent with it, and I am FAR better at teaching others how to minimize their struggle than I ever was before. I credit Jeff Smiley.>

<. . . In a sense - I'm working these techniques in every minute the horn is on my face - even if I only play Jeff's exercises for 30 or so minutes a day.?

<Sandra, Toledo>

BTW, I only work BE exercises for 15 minutes or less a day. I've been working them for three years now, whereas at the time of this writing, Sandra had been working on them for about six months, perhaps a little longer. I think the longer one works them, the less time it takes to get the desired results, but that's only a guess.

Valerie