Hi everyone, I'm new over here!

I've been playing French horn for more than three years now. It's something I combine with my job and other occupations, which leaves me with about three hours per week to play it, in the best of cases. So, as you can imagine, my progress is slow. But I am progressing, there's no doubt about that. Up to now I've been studing a lot of technique, focusing on producing a good sound. My range is not bad, although it needs improving (if A4 is that at 440 Hz, which I'm not too sure about, the it goes from G2 -with some difficulties- to G5), and I've been working hard on flexibility and articulations.

What is really troubling me is fingering. At the moment I must play fast notes (and "fast", for me, is rather slow: four notes per second), my fingers start to o mad, moving almost randomly in the hope of hitting the right keys, with my little finger dancing in the hook, stretching and shrinking, and with the rest of my fingers rising to about one kilometer from the keys. It's like I panic when I see semiquavers.

Have you got any suggestion about anything I may do to improve this? I've tried playing scales with a metronome, quicker each time, but I cannot notice any difference in point when everything starts to go wrong.

Thanks a lot in advance for your help.

By the way, I forgot to mention that I've got a professional degree in piano, which should mean my finger agility is, if something, higher than average, and that I'm not old enought to suffer from arthritis or any other impeding illness. I cannot understand what's happening!

You should send a private message to Val_Wells. She has a very good fingering learning exercise she can send you. It worked really well with some of my students.

copy and paste this and you can see her post.
http://www.8notes.com/f/51_251759.asp

Another thing I find with many of my students is that often times the fingers are doing fine until they think the fingers are off and then they try and speed them up. There are three things that need to be addressed.
1 - learning time
2 - engagement of lips/tongue/fingers
3 - piano ear.

Learning Time.
As a professional when I need to learn a new instrument fingering it takes about 2 months to learn the fingerings playing almost every day. It takes 2 years for the fingerings to become part of your fingers muscle memory or become automatic.

Engagement:
There are 112 things to you have to do to produce a note. You can't think about them all. Often times students think the fingers are not fast enough and go haywire when actually the fingers are right on; it's usually only that the tongue, lips, and fingers aren't together which makes it sound off. You need to 'wait'. So, when you play think about not playing the next note until you have to. Try to play the next note as late as you can without actually being late. This will allow you tongue, lips, and fingers to all 'snap' at the right time. You'll find yourself playing faster passages but they will seem like they are slower. (A bad analogy would be if you need to be somewhere at 9, show up at 8:59:59. Don't show up at 8:33).

Piano Ear
As you speed up your playing your body and mind want to switch over to automatic pilot. This is muscle memory. As a piano player you see a note and your mind will hear the piano note and try to play it (most likely with the right hand)this is happening unconciously. You also have your mind recognizing the Horn note and you unconciously want to play that with your right hand also. And then you have your mind conciously trying to play the note on the Horn with your left hand.

It's jut going to take some time to break through the barrier. And eventually your mind will understand this is a new added instrument, not a replacement instrument.

Things you can do:
Since your practice time is limited, see if you can do two or three small practices in a day instead of one practice. Separated repetition is the key. Run through the following scales only three times each on days when you do practice; Bb, Ab, G, and D Major, their relative melodic minors (G, F, E, and B), and Whole tone scales starting on E and B.

JOhnlovemusic, your post has really been an eye-opener for me. Everything in it is sound advice from start to finish.

1. Learning time: since, as I said before, I'm progressing slowly, I feel encouraged knowing that two years is a reasonable time before one gets muscle memory. At my rate, and taking into account that most of the time I've been working on other issues, I don't feel as clumsy as I thought.

2. Engagement: wow! I think this might be the key. Now I realize I wasn't that aware of coordination, and that it's something I must really focus on, since any fault in this is likely (if not sure) to blur the beginning and end of each note, planting the seeds for chaos.

3. Piano ear: I was unconscious of the fact, and I would have never suspected something like that might happen! But as soon as I've read your posting I've asked someone to take a look at my right hand while I try to play fast notes, and I'm told my fingers move all the time! While I don't know whether I must pay special attention to this, or it's something that will adjust itself with time, it's great to know you've hit the nail on the head!

I'd love to follow your advice and do several short practices a day, but I'm afraid that will have to be only at weekends (I get up at six and arrive back home at eight in the evening, so I'm lucky if I can manage to squeeze half an hour a day). Nevertheless, it sounds so reasonable that I'll start doing so next Saturday. Oh, and I'm sending Val_Wells a message and see whether she's so nice so as to send me those exercises. I've read her posting, and it looks as if they'll be very useful! Thanks for drawing my attention towards her!

I hope I'll be back in some time with good news about my progress. I was feeling a bit discouraged, but I think it'll ge better, sure!

Thanks a lot for your kind help!

I am realy glad I stopped into 8notes today. I wanted to ask John about the value of my horn and then I saw this post about fingerings.

I too suffer from fingering issues and I can relate to the panic when I see a run of 16ths coming. I returned to the horn 5 years ago after a long hiatus and I still have fingering issues. I think I have practiced wrong and its mapped in my brain now, so I am trying to relearn how to do it right. It lloks like there is good info here. Thanks much John and Valerie.

PAul

Hi everybody again.

First of all my apologies to everyone, and especially to Pokey, who sent a private message to me months ago asking me about my impressions on the fingering exercises so kindly offered by Valerie. I don't usually like to take French leave and go without saying anything. But, apart from the fact that I'm not a frequent user of the internet, I've gone through a host of problems that have arisen for the last months (being in and out of work, a computer breakdown, a wrist injury...)

Because of my bad (left) wrist, I haven't been able to do those exercises for a long time. In fact, I'm still getting to use that hand again normally. However, I did them for about ten days before being forced to give them up. And I must say that in such a short time, I already noticed good results. I just played them once and again, increasing very slowly the speed of the metronome, and although I didn't reach a breathtaking speed, I did reach one I wouldn't have even dreamt of before. Even my teacher noticed it! Now, even if I haven't done them for a long time, I can see I am much nearer where I was when I left them that where I was before I did them. One thing I think helped was that, from playing the exercises so many times, I learnt them by rote, and not having to read the notes, I could concentrate on the fingering and also in what JOhnlovemusic said: engagement of lips/tongue/fingers. I think that a combination of all this has helped me quite a lot.

I'm planning to start playing again these exercises heavily (wrist allowing!) I hope that, as I've already said I think it is, I'll be able to start almost at the same point at which I left it all those weeks ago. I feel excited about it, because nothing is more rewarding that noticing one's progress! Thanks a lot for your valuable help!

I have an idea that may help. It's worth a try. (Sorry this is so long.)

I believe your problems are more related to stress & fear than your lack of technique. You CAN NOT get rid of things that frighten & stress you. But you can learn to block your body's physical reaction to those things. When you feel a panic coming on, focus your attention on relaxing your neck. Don't think about your fingers, focus on relaxing your neck. If you learn to relax your neck, you whole body will relax. Now I'll tell you how I learned this.

I came back to horn four years ago after a 33 year hiatus. I worked hard and in a relatively short time developed fabulous technique and a formidable range. But the stresses of life, family problems, political & economic turmoil, too many playing commitments, my own fear of failure, etc., completely overwhelmed me about a year ago. I suddenly reacted with an involuntary full body panic reaction every time I tried to play my horn. My right shoulder and my head would jerk and my lips would wobble. Of course, all this involuntary movement prevented me from being able to play with a steady tone. [Some people might call what was happening to me "embouchrue dystonia" but I prefer to call it a simple panic reaction.]

Anyway for six weeks I couldn't play a single note. I thought my embouchure had totally collapsed, but there really wasn't anything wrong with my embouchure. I had just developed a very strong panic reaction to my fears, so much so that my whole body reacted violently.

The stressors caused my body to tense and the tension caused the involuntary movements. Since I couldn't get rid of the stressors, I had to find a way to block my body's reaction to them.

I read everything I could get my hands on about the embouchure, the brain, movement, relaxing, performing, etc. I tried various breathing techniques & other methods to relax, but nothing helped for longer than a few minutes at a time. I also sought the services of a local chiropractor who used a special technique to help my whole body relax. His techniques were helpful, but I didn't want to become dependent on him. I had to find a lasting (and affordable) way to keep my body relaxed. I eventually found a little book written by Barbara Conable for students of the Alexander Technique (AT).

In the very first chapter of this little book I found a basic AT principle that was pivotal to my recovery: "When the neck is tense, the whole body tenses. When the neck is relaxed, the whole body relaxes."

I began to focus my attention on relaxing my neck, not only when I played my horn but when I did anything else troughout the day: walking, talking, typing, reading, resting, washing dishes, etc.

It took about five or six months of intense self therapy to regain my ability to play for 40 or more minutes without involuntary movements inteferring. Now, whenever I play, if I hear the least little wobble creeping into my tone, all I have to do is focus on relaxing my neck and--voila!--the wobble goes away.

I believe the panic reaction you experience in your fingers when you see semiquavers may be arrested by the same or a similar technique. Practice semiquavers with a metronome, starting with a very slow tempo and gradually working faster a little at a time. While you play, focus your attention on relaxing your neck. The relaxation that starts in the neck will eventually travel down your shoulder through your arm and down to your fingers as well as through your whole body.

Just my ideas. I hope they are helpful.

Valerie Wells
http://www.beforhorn.blogspot.com/

I've been paying attention to my neck while I play. When I read Valerie's thought I realized that stress around the neck is certainly familiar to me. I grabbed the horn, tried to become conscious of my neck, and immediately realized that it was tense, and that I was shrugging my shoulders, not much, but enough not to be completely relaxed. At the moment I tried consciosly to relax all that area, I got the impression that air flowed more freely and that the horn sound was fuller. The bad part of it is that I immediately shrugged my shoulders again, unconsciously. I haven't been able to relate this to finger speed, because I almost used up all my study time trying not to tense my neck while playing scales slowly, but I am sure, from what Valerie said, that it's influencing it. I'm trying to focus in solving this problem first of all, and I'm sure many things will work better afterwards. I'm amazed how this has turned out to be like this in a context where I should have no reason to get stressed! It's amazing how you expert people can come out with solutions without ever seeing or hearing anything! Even if I find out that, after all, my finger speed doesn't improve (although I'm sure it will), this was a unknown problem that does require my getting rid of it! Thanks a lot!

Oh. I've just realized that my neck and shoulders are kind of tense while I'm siting here in front of the computer. Maybe this is more built into me than I thought.

I just started in December of 09 and I am playing sheet music now!!! I think you should go on line and find fingering charts that you can print!!! Thats what I do!!!

Jayster,

If you don't have a private instructor who knows what they're doing, the risk of using a general fingering chart from on line is T.M.I. -- too much information that leaves the student not knowing the fingerings that work best for the various registers of the double horn.

I've had new students show up for their first first lesson with very inefficient fingering pratices. I have made a "preferred" fingering chart that shows the most efficient fingerings for most (but, of course, not all) double horns. If you'd like a copy, contact me.

Valerie Wells
http://www.beforhorn.blogspot.com/

valeriew78@gmail.com

I've got fingering charts in a couple of the horn books I began playing with, which include alternative fingerings (like, for example, playing the G just above the staff with a 0 instead of with an 1 in a Bb horn), and fingerings that produce a somewhat out-of-tune note that can be corrected with the lips. But there's one doubt I have regarding this. For example: my main problem is trying to use the 3rd finger. So, now that I'm studing Mozart's first concerto, there's a one-octave scale in E major starting with an E (somewhere at about one-third of the score of the first movement). With the fingering I usually employ, it would be 2-12-23-12-2-23-12 (from E to D). Since it goes fast, I'm tempted to play it as 2-12-2-12-2-23-12, hoping that no one notices the out-of-tune G sharp. But I don't know, is that "cheating"? I mean, if I play the second version, am I condemning myself to never learning the "proper" fingering? That is, if the change from 12 to 23 and back is difficult for me, shouldn't I force myself to play it, so as to get used to it for the cases where there is no other solution? I think there's another instance in which I could avoid the 23-12 jump (between the C sharp and the D), by playing the D with a 3, but in this case the advantage is not so clear, having to play a B (2) afterwards.

If you are playing a double horn you have choices of fingerings:
Most accepted by most teachers would be: 0-2-T23-T12-T2-T23-T12.
Other choices:
It looks like from your post you are trying to do it on the Bb horn. If that is the case and you are going to play G#=2, then you might try A=0. At the speed you will be playing this many people will not notice the out of tune-ness as those notes fly by. But, a good musician will. If you had a C horn you could just do it 12-2-12-1-0-2-0.

My opinion on out of tune notes - You should not adjust them with your lips. Let me repeat that - DO NOT adjust out of tune notes with your lips. You have a right hand in the bell you can use to adjust your pitches, if you need to.

Valerie's fingering chart is your best bet for normal, in tune, and consistent notes.

Yes, I'm playing a double horn (only that I restrung the thumb valve so as to make the horn play in Bb when not using it, so I didn't metion the T - I didn't realize this before posting). I'll stick to your notation from now on (that is, no T means playing the horn in F). Your answer leads me to another subject: I notice that, following the fingering you've proposed, one would change sides of the horn at the G sharp. I have read here and there that the good place to do so is more or less at G sharp or A. However, the three teachers I've had till now (and all the French horn players around me) use the Bb horn almost all the time, even below those notes, except for some specific notes (for example, to play with a 0 the G one octave below the G below the G sharp we're talking about, and to play the notes from the C below that G downwards). That's why everyone restrings the fourth valve. The reason they give for this is that the F side of the horn gives you those low notes not available in the Bb side, and that it's easier to play high notes the Bb side, apart from the fact that having a double horn gives you a wider set of fingerings. But I wonder what's more right in general.

About the hand in the bell, that's new for me. I had heard that it was the way to change the notes in the natural horn, but I had no idea that it was used that way nowadays. I suppose it's something they tell you when you're more advanced. So far I've been told to correct the pitch with the lips. Now I don't know what to do, whether to do what my instructor says and adapt to the pace he sets, or "innovate" following your advice. Anyway, would you please tell me what the inconvenient of adjusting out-of-tune notes with my lips? I've noticed that I can play notes with a big difference in pitch by changing it with the lips, so I thought that doing it that way was meant to make you learn what the exact lip tension is required for each note to be in tune. I mean, if for example I get used to playing always flat, is it not my lips which should learn to tune the notes?

(Sorry if I've explained myself in such a clumsy way. I've got difficulties talking about this in English.)

Oh, so you have your Horn standing in Bb? Okay. That's fine. I know a quite a few players who do that. When and where I grew up that was not possible on the models we were forced to play.

This is going to be a it lengthy itself. - - - There are several, or were several teachers who taught use the Bb horn as much as you possibly can (John Barrows is a good example). The Bb horn certainly speaks easier and quicker. After all it is a shorter instrument. There is another school of thought that teaches the change from F to Bb horn at G#. Their reasoning is that the F horn sounds better in that range and the Bb doesn't sound as good. For many years I played 4th horn, but more recently I have been playing a lot of 2nd horn. When I am playing 2nd horn I try to match whatever the first horn player is doing. So, if my 1st horn is playing Bb fingerings I will play Bb fingerings. I will always try to be on the same side of the horn that they are on. To do this I need to have pretty good control of all alternate fingerings. When I play with people who studied with Verne Reynolds or Dale Clevenger I play with the change at G#, when I paly with people who studied with John Barrows I play almost everything on the Bb horn.

There are some teachers that would like you to change horns at the G#, but never during a phrase. So, if you are doing a run, like the one you are describing in Mozart, some teachers would say either do it on the F horn or do it on the Bb horn, but don't change in between. Their reason is that changing horns during the phrase will change the tone as a result of the resistance differences between the two horns, the change in air pressure could also throw you off (supposedly).

The best way for you to describe your fingerings is to state you play a double horn that stands in Bb. This way when YOU are using the Thumb you can write T for the thumb. This is important because the fingers feel and act differently when you have the thumb depressed.

Since you are standing in Bb here some fingerings to try (try them slowly at first) and see which you like best. My favorite is pattern #4.
1) 2-12-2-12-2-1-12
2) 2-3-2-3-2-23-12
3) 2-12-2-0-2-23-12
4) 2-12-2-0-2-1-12
5) T12-12-2-T12-2-T12-12
6) T12-12-2-T12-T2-T12-12

It is funny that you are being told to use the Bb exclusivly and that the F horn is for the low notes you can't get with the Bb horn. Since originally everyone played F horns and the Bb side was added to help separate the high partials and give you a couple low notes you can't get with the F horn. Very funny.

Don't wonder which is more right than the other. What's right is what works and what sounds good. You have to sound good and you have to play in tune. As I mentioned above, I will switch fingerings depending what my principal player is playing. But I am doing this as a professional in an attempt to blend as much as I can with the principal and this includes sometimes even using a specific horn for certain players. In fact there is one player who expects me to play a certain horn. If I were to show up with a diffferent make or different model than hers I would not be hired to play with her again. So no one is right, or even more right, than someone else.

Hand in the bell. Before we had valves this is what we did to get notes outside the natural harmonic series. But today the bells are much bigger. If you are holding the horn correctly you should be able to make small adjustments to fine tune the pitch. Over time you will learn which notes are a little out and as you play more and more you will naturally move your hand just a small amount as you move into that note. It will also depend which note in the chord you are playing, who else is playing, and what key you are in. But as you stated - yes, this is more advanced playing techniques. Surprisingly many teachers do not tell you how to do this when you get more advanced. Perhaps it's because some horns require more adjustments than others, perhaps the teachers are not good enough to tell, perhaps they don't know how to teach it, perhaps they use their lips (yikes!) or perhaps they don't want to teach you because they don't want you to take their job away from them.

If you have a regular instructor that is a professional horn player you should do what your instructor tells you to do. Because he or she will think you are crazy if you tell him that your going to do it differently because some guy on the forum told you to do it this way. If you were my student and you came in to a lesson doing it differently than I asked and you told me it was because someone else told you to do it this way I would fire you as a student and tell you to go study with that other person. If you have a band director, or a general music teacher telling you this stuff and he or she does not specialize in Horn then you should get a private instructor who specializes in Horn.

I am against making pitch adjustments with your lips because you shouldn't have to and shouldn't need to. You should learn to play each note where it sounds the best and has the best tone and color. There is a natural vibration that fits each note in the tube it is being played in. There is a natural sweet spot fo reach note and that is what you should be playing. If your horn is tuned properly to itself you will be very close to where you need to be. when adjusting your lips you will probably pinch to go higher, this will result in a poorer quality sound, and will make you tired sooner. If you get in the habit of constantly playing flat then you should push your tuning slide in further.Being consistently flat is a good thing by the way. The problem would be if you were all over the place, flat here and sharp there, etc. You want your lips to be consistent.

No appology is needed for you English. Your Englisgh is quite good. Very good in fact!!!. It is easy for me to understand what you are saying.

Schools and teachings:
If you are planing on going to college and doing music in college and you have a possible idea of where you want to go. I would encourage you to find out who the teacher is at that school.When we know that we can determine who he or she studied with and find out what you are going to expect to get when you get there. It takes two years to train your muscle memory properly on any horn technique so that it is automatic. So if we know where you might go we can find a teacher who teches the same thing, or you can study from that same teacher if you are near the college at all.