I'm a newbie here so I want to introduce myself.

I used to play horn in high school both in the concert band and the community orchestra. My horn at the time was a Getzen compensating double, not very good intonation and low notes were weak. But in 2004 it was stolen and in January 2009 I finally picked up a Yamaha 4D single F specimen (too poor to get another double at the time). I've been playing it off and on and just picked it up again recently.

Now the topic of concern. I've been doing a lot of natural horn simulation by keeping the same fingering (all open valves counts as a fingering too) and using just lips and the right hand.

I've always taken for granted that modern horn and natural horn don't have the same kind of bore or mouthpiece or bell or whatever. Therefore the same hand and embouchure technique won't produce quite the same results on the two. Just what are the structural differences between the two, and what effect will they have (pitch and timbre) to the various notes? How might I adjust my lips and hand to compensate for the differences?

Another thing. I found that the various 'crooks' (fingerings) on my horn behaved very similarly to what traditional literature suggests, but not quite. The 'C crook' did indeed have a gooey clay-like response and messy tone quality, while the Eb, E and F 'crooks' were easy to manage. The only key of contention was D, which seemed to respond a bit more easily than expected. Not clear like Eb or F, but much better than C. The D crook is supposed to still be fairly difficult to play in. I found out that it is rather difficult if you're not paying attention, but with a little finesse it comes out just dandy fine. Could this have something to do with the fact that tuning used to be a bit darker than the A-440 standards of today? The D in Baroque tuning is about the same pitch as Db in modern tuning, and even in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, tuning pitches were still quite a bit below where they are today.

Do you have any food for thought on this one? I'm tempted to go and try out the D 'crook' with the slides pulled out quite a bit, OR a Db 'crook' with everything pushed in so that the pitch is a little above contemporary Db but still well below D. That might give a more accurate reflection on classical horn technique.

What a wonderful endeavor. It's a wonderful way to learn more about the instrument and play it well.

Natural Horn Simulation
You are correct that the modern horn and natural horn don't have the same bores, mouthpieces, branches, or bells. It doesn't mean you can't still practice the technique. What are the differences? The second largest difference is the Bell. Most modern horns measure 12-1/4 inch at the bell end. Most Natural Horns measure 10 or 10-1/2 inchs. So it is much much easier to do these techniques on the original instrument. Mouthpieces were a little different. Many horn players specialized in high or low horn playing and the mouthpieces were quite different as a result of that. High players might have more of a cup than a funnel shape. The rims were very sharp compared to todays smooth rounded rims.

The largest difference is the taper for the key. In the modern horn we have a fixed leadpipe/mouthpipe. When you add length you are adding length of tubing that is already at the fixed diameter of .468 (some horns may vary slightly). With the natural horn the horn was made in that key so the inside diameter could be flared accordingly thoughout the instrument. On later horns with crooks the same principle applies. A horn with a crook in D might be more difficult to play than a horn made in the key of D.

You really can't and really don't WANT to adjust your lips and hand to compensate for the differences between the old naturla horns and modern day horn. This is a bad analogy but that would be like trying to drive a Nascar race car with pair of hitched up horses.

Horn Keys
The quality of your single horn may make a difference in teh 'keys' you are trying to play in. Generally on many modern horns the more length you add the more difficult to play. So your difficult keys will be Db,C, and B. This is because many horns have their leadpipe and bell set up to play best in E and D. Everything else is a compromise the next best keys on a single F horn should be Eb,and D. I do not think your issues or discoveries ahve anything to do with the 'tunings of today'.

I have hand horn in D that plays wonderfully. It is not set up for crooks, it is stuck in D (surprisingly closer to Eb than you would think). Another Horn has crooks. I hate the Eb crook on this horn. I am sure it is just a poorly made crook.

Speaking of Tuning.
There is a misconception about tuning in the past and present. Many orchestras today play at 442cps, for the past 30 or 40 years 440cps was the often referred to pitch. Prior to that people will tell you is was 438cps.In reality this could generally apply to American orchestras well, but not European orchestras necessarily. Prior to modern practices any given orchestra in any given city or burg could be playing at any pitch reference. As I mentioned briefly above my old Horn in D almost sounds as though it might be in Eb, but it is a Horn in D. Generally the instrument makers in the area made instruments that would be close in pitch to the other instruments in that community. So an instrument that played in tune in Dortmund, Germany might be able to make the pitch in Kapfenberg, Austria but would not be able to play with anyone in Troyes, France; and they're all within 500 miles of each other.

I do like your idea of either playing a very flat D, or a very sharp Db. This is good thinking. I suspect you will like the results of the D better. The Db is naturally sharp already so you might not be able to get it much sharper.

Going back to addressing technique - It is great what you are doing and everyone should do it. Everyone should learn to play natural scales (no valve changes).But it is more difficult on todays instrument than the old natural horns. Mostly because of the larger bell but also because of the large lenths of tubing. The degree of closing the bell is different, the resistance in air flow is different, the way the air breaks against the inside of the mouthpiece is different.The modern horn is not balanced for natural horn playing like the natural horns. When comparing the modern horn to the old natural horn the modern horn a compromised, mediocre, thrown together, pile of pipes; none of which are truly correct in length or diameter. But it saves us from having to carry around a trunk full of 13 different horns.

I salute you for your patience, Karl! Wow!

Val

Well my patience is very inconsistent and selective across various activities, people, and situations.